Curse

Vanquisher · Sep 09, 2007, 12:31 PM // 12:31

This isn't just going to be one of those "30 minute" things, by the way. I'm talking about the NPC's also. Okay, you could say "hey idiot VoD was 45 before!" and yes, it was, but I'm talking about why it was better during GWFC, and why only certain things should have been changed.

I've always been split on the idea of Victory or Death, by the way. The fact it gives advantages to certain Builds, the fact you can be winning up until that point and then something just automatically means you have a much worse chance of winning the match than you would otherwise. Most importantly, the fact that it often forces games to end prematurely, regardless of what was happening, are all pretty bad aspects in my opinion.

But then you've got how it makes griefing all that much harder, as you know there's going to be a result. And that it adds a new tactical element to the game. Personally I think this outweights the costs it brings. More tactics and strategies makes the game far more fun to play, no two ways about it.

However, in its current state it's just far worse than before. Yes, before, when you could nuke all the other teams NPC's. Before people start attacking me for that, I'm just going to quote what it says beneath my username:
Character: Vanquisher The Monk
Guild: One Hitter Quitters

I'm pretty sure I've gone on massive rants about NPC nuking, and this hasn't changed. The ability to nuke NPC's at VoD sucked, but more on that later. However the current state of VoD is no better. 18 minutes is far to short. 30 was absolutely brilliant. With 30 there was time to use a multitude of tactics and strategies in the highest end of play. Tactics that I've since seen not used, almost ever.

Watching and participating in various matches, I've only actually seen 3 tactics ever used, and one exclusively when 18 minutes comes; 8vs8 (/7vs7), splitting, and ganking. I seperate splitting and ganking because splitting can simply be the act of skirmishing, pushing through their team to stop their Flag Runner with a character or 2, etc. Ganking I see to be the act of a full on Guild Lord attack. I think actually, that what I just said may be slightly wrong. I saw a single Guild go for the Lord before 18 minutes came around yesterday, though that was more as a result of an ineffectual counter-split than it was of the act. It's actually pretty amusing that the only team I've seen do it is MoJ, who actually have 2 players who went to both Taiwan and Germany.

So what's GvG missing with the VoD changes to what it had before? Well, the splitting isn't really dynamic. It's always Ranger+Warrior, or a dedicated Assassin. (Every being vast majority, there are of course a few exceptions). I don't really ever see an extra character push up to deal with the response that's sent, and I definately don't see effective collapses.
Nor do I see chain running of Flags, nor halfspikes, fakespikes, etc. Two examples of the best chain flag running and various different spike calling Guilds are EvIL and iGi. EvIL were so strong on their understanding of Flag Running that you'd often find yourself pinned to your front gate before 6 minutes, with Danjang extending into your Guard area to kill Diesel (lol), and Terror used to call amazingly effective spikes in iGi, mixing fakes in with halves and calling for various forms of Deep Wound application, as well as various base res times. Corwen was another decent spike caller for Char when we ran Me/E FCAS for like a day, but that was more about timing than mixing it up.
I don't see good Catapult strategy on the very few matches that take place on cat maps. I only really see it prepped for VoD, rather than Flag pushes, and ground control. Basically all these arguments highlight the drop in standards that I think there have been, and a lot of them are simply due to the VoD timer being too short to incorporate them.

Now onto the NPC's. I was a huge advocate before of staggered NPC withdrawal, but in practise it's so much worse. I don't know why they weren't just coded to not be retarded in regards to AE Damage, but now aggroing and Cat'ing guards isn't done really, quite possibly because for the most stupid reason cat maps have been removed from AT Roster (the maps are imbalanced in regards to pathing, because apparently prettiness > balance/functionality, and fixing the problem takes more effort than just removing them from the roster).

Now, how can all the tactics and strategy of high level GvG play be stimulated again? Well it's actually pretty simple. 30 minute VoD, NPCs back to how they were, but with an updated AI to attack targets they have LoS for, and to move out of any AE Damage. Every NPC killed nets 2 morale for killing team (5 NPCs killed recharges all skills). This would allow more time to incorporate more strats, makes splitting far more important/essential as the entire core of NPC's is far more damaging than a poxy 3 coming in waves or whatever it is, make countering splits far more important due to morale/skill recharge. A lot more skirmish play makes people be more dynamic in action and response, and would mean that people can't play block wars instead of guild wars.

P.S. I lost all that post the first time I went to post, so that's more a summary as I can't remember exactly what I wrote before.

P.P.S. Warrior's Isle back in AT Rotation.

P.P.P.S. AT's should be reworked. A system of one tournament every 5 weeks or something, qualifiers every weekend from weeks 2 through 4, with a rating point requirement needed, and to stop people just getting the rating and not playing ladder anymore, making the next stage of qualifiers entry also require rating as well as victory in previous round.

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 10, 2007, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Didnt fully read his post, but if this wasnt stated I will. The npc's aggro all the way across the map if you do get in range. If you somehow aggro the first npc's, and then start falling back to your lord, they will go all the way back to the lord area with you. This makes it really hard for teams to regain energy, or even fall back something due to 8 archers using pindown. The 2 bodyguards was what made the npc's viable in a match. Having a dual maelstrom dual firestorm was what allowed a lot of pressure through.

One of the pluses from back in those days, a lot of people didnt have as much AoE to really blow up npc's as fast... I guess smiting but it wasnt that bad. A problem also with VoD and npc's is the amount of defense people have. Some teams can tank npc's and a team because of the sheer amount of passive defense they have.

To be honest, AT's really dont even feel like tournaments, they just feel like ladder matches with more rewards. I miss the tournaments that kind of meant something, were few and far apart, and were restricted on some teams. The monthlies are just terrible because the sheer number of guilds and the number of gimmicks.

twicky_kid · Sep 10, 2007, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Completely agree with you Vanq. 30 minute VoD allowed you to actually play the match and execute a number of different tactics and ground control to win.

Now its prep your build for VoD, gank from the start, and prevent other team from getting a moral boost. Win at VoD.

1 Body guard is absolute crap. They are easily interrupted and killed. The knights group and get pounded like a porn star by aoe. They don't add much pressure either because of ward vs melee which the archers are not affected by. When we had 30 minute VoD you had to be careful and prep before you go rushing in the base. Now I hit rush and don't even worry if I have a monk behind me.

The 2nd body guard should have been replaced by a monk (NPC monks are not that great anyways). Turn the Knights back into archers. Put VoD back at 30 minutes.

One idea is at VoD have your NPCs split into 2 parties. One moves to the stand the other moves to kill the enemy GL. Both parties take a different route.

Dzan · Sep 10, 2007, 10:23 AM // 10:23

Two bodyguards made it so that when you rolled at a team at the stand in 2 minutes they would turtle for the next 28 and drag the match out to the bitter end, when it should have been well over. Do you really want to return to those days?

DutchSmurf · Sep 10, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

One advantage of the 18 minutes VoD is that I only have to wait 18 minutes before the match I'm observing gets interesting. I remember some movies made at the last real championship in which they made a summary of the things before VoD in like 1 minute. Sad thing is that during that 1 minute they mostly talked about the builds. And even more sad is that they didn't miss anything.
If one team is stronger then the other, 18 minutes should be enough to end it. If both teams are equal, nothing happens until VoD. So the sooner VoD starts, the better it is. I really don't see what you can do in 30 minutes that can't be done in 18. People don't use those tactics you named anymore, but I really think that is more because of the people playing then the time it takes until VoD. Can't count the times that I saw 2 teams at the flagstand for more then 10 minutes, never got close to killing anything. But neither of them was going to try and do something else either. And then it is really better if that only continues 8 more minutes instead of 20.

Vanquisher · Sep 10, 2007, 12:52 PM // 12:52

18 minutes is far more about Build Wars than 30 minutes was. I'm sorry if I don't appreciate the significant importance of how good a match is to watch vs. how good it is to play, but in my opinion playing is always and will always be far better.

That said, how is watching 2 teams sit in Wards with a Blockagon interesting?

LifesRestorer · Sep 10, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

imo GvG has been shaped around tournaments and i really think this is completely the wrong way to go about it. If you dont have enough time to compete in a tournament then tough shit, don't change the GvG matches themselves to fit around the poorly designed resignfests that are AT's.

30minute games allowed many more chances to turn around the game for both sides and games actually ended before VoD :O
Right now in 18 minute games you see a team split trying to take out a few NPCs before the 18 minute mark while the most passively defensive build in existence holds off at the flagstand. you never see teams get grinded down before vod anymore becuase theres not enough time to allow it.

I want to see things happen before vod. i want to see people fight, instead of waiting around for 18 minutes until their splinter weapon becomes overpowered.

Yue · Sep 10, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

So instead wait 30 minutes for a glyphsac met shower.

Vanquisher · Sep 10, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Pretty sure you can accomplish more to prevent such things in 30 minutes, and giving NPC's an upgraded AI so they don't take it would work. Not the crappy one AI have in PvE, where they tank it until half health and then try and get out, but getting out instantly would work.

Burton2000 · Sep 10, 2007, 05:55 PM // 17:55

18 mins is fine imo maybe 20 at most but anymore and its just gets boring if your 2 equal teams fighting it out.

30 minute matches are just the biggest bore in gw imo especially if a team just camps 10 minutes in.

Vanquisher · Sep 10, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by vanquisher

I'm sorry if I don't appreciate the significant importance of how good a match is to watch vs. how good it is to play, but in my opinion playing is always and will always be far better.

For emphasis. Observers should not be catered to over players. Participating in those matches often means being on top of your game, as one mistake will quite likely lose you the match.

Aera · Sep 10, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Step 1: Fix NPC AI
Step 2: Delete SoD from the game
Step 3: Nerf Defensive Anthem till it's useless
Step 4: 25 minute VoD

Gogo, lot more fun in GvG.

Seriously, SoD makes games last so much longer than needed.

Also, removing the extra damage in VoD might remove the importance of NPCs, so turtling till voD won't be as effective as it is now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Now, how can all the tactics and strategy of high level GvG play be stimulated again? Well it's actually pretty simple. 30 minute VoD, NPCs back to how they were, but with an updated AI to attack targets they have LoS for, and to move out of any AE Damage. Every NPC killed nets 2 morale for killing team (5 NPCs killed recharges all skills). This would allow more time to incorporate more strats, makes splitting far more important/essential as the entire core of NPC's is far more damaging than a poxy 3 coming in waves or whatever it is, make countering splits far more important due to morale/skill recharge. A lot more skirmish play makes people be more dynamic in action and response, and would mean that people can't play block wars instead of guild wars.

That's a nice idea as well!

Neo-LD · Sep 10, 2007, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Step 2: Delete SoD from the game

Seriously, people need to lay off of SoD. When you look at the long list of skills teams use for Defense, it is dominated by passive, party-wide skills like Ward and Aegis. Those are the undesirable skills that need to be changed.

If you take away the passive crap that teams combo it with, and the e-management skills that teams use to spam it, and SoD would be basically the best reward-player-skill spell in the game. It would just a good (elite) active prot, which is exactly the kind of skill that we want. It would reward intelligent monks for good placement and punish bad offenses that cant find ways around it. In both ways, it seperates the good from the bad, which is what competitive GW is (or rather, should have been) all about.

Vanquisher · Sep 10, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

SoD shouldn't be maintainable. If it is, it should be interruptable.

Seamus Finn · Sep 10, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

giving NPC's an upgraded AI so they don't take it would work. Not the crappy one AI have in PvE, where they tank it until half health and then try and get out, but getting out instantly would work.

I don't know, this could be abusable as well. Say I have balth's smite/Air of enchant, can't I just keep your archers kiting now while mine pressure you out? Also since things like splinter weapon trigger per hit I am not sure the AI would equate it to a firestorm... maybe I just don't pve enough though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If you take away the passive crap that teams combo it with, and the e-management skills that teams use to spam it, and SoD would be basically the best reward-player-skill spell in the game. .

I am not sure that SoD is really that viable without the huge defensive infrastructure of block already in place. The recharge on SoD is kind of long for a big prot and being able to say "no matter what you definately can't touch this guy" isn't as nice if you don't have the "and you probably can't touch anyone else" clause. When SoD was first being run near the buff I didn't find it effective fighting against it. When you make the only effective play a team can make adren spike through full party protting, SoD is VERY strong, when physicals can pressure your team and switch targets so that it matters, the SoD bar looks like a fairly gimpy prot bar to me.

Vanquisher · Sep 10, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I don't know, this could be abusable as well. Say I have balth's smite/Air of enchant, can't I just keep your archers kiting now while mine pressure you out? Also since things like splinter weapon trigger per hit I am not sure the AI would equate it to a firestorm... maybe I just don't pve enough though.

Kiting backwards, thus aggroing all other NPCs, and requiring the Monk who's hitting Air-RoF-Guardian over and over to extend, and punishing that Monk because it's a softer target, would work. Also, Splinter Weapon still needs further slight tweaking. Personally I think Smiting's gone past almost all forms of usefulness and isn't worth it anymore considering the alternatives you can have anyway.

wuzzman · Sep 11, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

18 minutes is far more about Build Wars than 30 minutes was. I'm sorry if I don't appreciate the significant importance of how good a match is to watch vs. how good it is to play, but in my opinion playing is always and will always be far better.

That said, how is watching 2 teams sit in Wards with a Blockagon interesting?

what build wars? Its all about wait-for-vod-way! Everyone and their r5000 mother can make a match last for 18 minutes ^_^. Guild Wars, blah, Block Wars ftw.

Phe Belladona · Sep 11, 2007, 01:12 AM // 01:12

SoD is fine, GoLE needs just removing its so stupid it hurts. Remove it and we'll see how the Block fest continues Bsurge Warder meet PLeak, Monks would have to work well to use their SoDs and Aegis and not just need to regen 5 energy. It might be harsh but that glyph really pisses me off it lets ppl away with murder.

As for npcs i'd go with 2 bodyguards the game has gotten A LOT more vicious since ppl could camp around the lord, Dervishes.. massive AoE upgrades.. Splinter.. Teleporting.. so i dont think they could live forever in the cubby hole - esp if the glyph died

Longer games fine but remove glyph and ppl will be forced to pull back to npcs and actually move not tank

Yue · Sep 11, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Shields up is a bigger problem.

Vanquisher · Sep 11, 2007, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

SoD is fine, GoLE needs just removing its so stupid it hurts. Remove it and we'll see how the Block fest continues Bsurge Warder meet PLeak, Monks would have to work well to use their SoDs and Aegis and not just need to regen 5 energy. It might be harsh but that glyph really pisses me off it lets ppl away with murder.

As for npcs i'd go with 2 bodyguards the game has gotten A LOT more vicious since ppl could camp around the lord, Dervishes.. massive AoE upgrades.. Splinter.. Teleporting.. so i dont think they could live forever in the cubby hole - esp if the glyph died

Longer games fine but remove glyph and ppl will be forced to pull back to npcs and actually move not tank

I'm going to ask if you've ever seen the following;

Me/E
Mantra of Recovery {E}, ... , Ward Against Melee